Recently there was a thread on DuelistGroundz.com questioning whether there was a decline in the quality on the content on those forums. I believe there is but to me the issue is much larger than that. There is an entire culture of posters/players that have it backwards and spend more time on the forums themselves than doing actual testing. But that's not the point of this message. Rather I (a) want to make sure you understand the backstory behind what motivated me to finally get this information out there because (b) I believe the message being sent in these posts is important.
Sometimes to be truthful one has to be critical. That's what constructive criticism is. But some members thought I had gone too far by drawing a comparison between Yu-Gi-Oh and one's personal life. I feel as though the message I was trying to send was misunderstood. Here is my defense and explanation on why I said what I did:
To be clear, I'm not saying [his flaws as a duelist are] indicative of his flaws as a person. I said that his 'flaws as a person' (if that's how you want to refer to lacking an attention to detail) reflect him as a player, not the other way around. Who am I to pass judgment, especially in a public forum, on somebody's personal life based on their posts on a forum and the little interaction that I've had with them irl? For what it's worth,I believehe's in school at [a Division I college] working on getting a degree; I already know he's on the right track. But as I said, this is about more than just him. When it comes to getting better Yu-Gi-Oh and the posting on these forums, I talked towards/about him because it was an example that I had enough personal experience with that I could talk on (as in not a whim) of which I feel reflects a significant portion of the community.
I did draw a parallel between irl and Yu-Gi-Oh but rest assured that it wasn't to say 'bad at Yu-Gi-Oh, bad at life'. It's to reinforce the principals that make a player good also make for a successful personal life. As somebody who's doing alright in both, and a person that people respect in this game, I do think it's my responsibility to help the community grow as people, as well as players. If you have a problem with me because of that, go ahead. As long as there was somebody else that read it and they had a moment of self-reflection (we're on a forum for card games, I know that's as far as it's going to go, if I'm lucky), it was worth it.
Here's the original post:
I do understand for some people, they don't want to put in the work. This is a hobby and they want to win but not that much. That's fine! There's nothing wrong with being a casual or semi-competitive player. I know that I could work even harder than I do at this game (I haven't played since the WCQ, partially because I am really bored with the format and don't want to get burnt out before the fall events even begin, after all the testing I did before Nats). Everybody's at a different level. But I've always thought of DGz as the forum for the competitive community and thought that's how it liked to think of itself. If not, then all of this doesn't apply. But if you do think of yourself as a competitive player, or are aspiring to be one, then I stand by all of this. There's a lot I'm trying to say here and the wife has to go to work early tomorrow so she's rushing me off so sorry, I don't have time to put the bow on it and neatly wrap it up for everybody but here goes:
one time i was asking sam pedigo for advice, and he pretty much told me there's not much of a point in helping you considering the fact that you seem like you're looking for the easy way out and don't seem to be as dedicated as the other players here (paraphrasing, but along those lines). that really opened my eyes that day.
I'm glad you felt like it helped you but I don't get it, man... you have over 5,000 posts on DGz but I've never seen you play in a local. You yourself say how you don't think you're all that good but you're in every thread, always giving your opinion. If I haven't thoroughly tested it, and feel like it's been conclusive enough, then I don't post about it. Obviously not every post is about a card that I've already tested but you understand the point that I'm trying to make. This post of yours I'm quoting? Perfect example. I haven't deleted any of the messages in my inbox and the ones other people have are marked so that I know they no longer have the conversation. You still have mine. If you wanted to make a point, referencing that post, knowing (because I've already posted here) that I am in this thread, you could have done so ten times more effectively by going back and reading it, perhaps quoting the important parts instead of paraphrasing. That, punctuation, other details like those, they all show a lack of attention to detail. Why's that important?
You don't have to be a genius to be good at Yu-Gi-Oh or to have a successful life. All it takes is common sense, really. Think about it. Go to school, apply yourself, get good grades, don't get into trouble or get into situations that will get you into trouble, make good use of your time. Surrounding yourself with people smarter than you doesn't hurt, either. People are telling you all of this all of the time. But nobody listens; think about how many people actually do all those things. They just want to have fun at the expense of their best long-term interests. This game is no different. All you have to do is learn however you can, apply yourself, work hard (playtest, playtest, playtest!). Success will follow. Again... think of how many people actually do those things and aren't successful.
But I notice things like what I just mentioned in the paragraph before last and think to myself, this person doesn't have the basics down... that's not somebody that's going to be able to learn unless I take the time out to really help this person with the parts of the game that don't even have to do with playing (hence what I said in my PM last year), like: hard work, playtesting techniques, seeking out opportunities to learn (I looked around for old Yu-Gi-Oh articles on my own; before Worlds I researched and found a lot of information others didn't know was out there simply because they didn't look) and so forth. If I'm posting in Deck Discussion, trying to get ready for an event, helping people that need that much guidance is the furthest thing from my mind because that's not what I want to see. I'm looking for an intelligent conversation on the optimal card choices, not the outspoken fella that needs more help than he can realize. Then I come to my own realization that's everybody else posting in the thread? Oh, boy. I'm out. That's the reason you're seeing less content from the 'pros'. It's so far gone these days we see it as hopeless.
By the way, that's not to say I'm not willing to help somebody out with all of that. (Remember this is a hobby for me, too, and that the fun in it is applying myself and seeing how I fare against my opponent's and the 3rd player: luck... I don't have the ability to help everybody, especially starting from square one.) I mean, that's why I sent you what I did before. And I've sent messages far more in depth than the ones to you. But inevitably people realize how much work it is and that's that. Like I said in my last post,
I'm willing to help out people who show they can display the ability to think for themselves and are willing to work to get better at the game.
All the hours on hours that you spend lurking online could be spent actually testing and getting better at the game. Forums are supposed to compliment your game, not the other way around. But that's what so many people do. They go onto forums, make ignorant posts, get a decklist and then go play without actually testing or thinking when they're dueling. By now, if you had done that, and followed my advice, you would be really good at the game right now. Maybe you'd be "level 30" (read our conversation again) and I'd be interested in helping you take that next step. This probably says it all, though: the only time I remember you being brave enough to come up and try to engage me in a conversation in person, you didn't want to talk theory-oh, you asked me if I knew anything about another player cheating. So here you are, not a greatly improved player that's ready to take the next step, but instead you're still saying how bad you are. It's depressing, man, because it's not just you... don't get me wrong. You represent soooo much of the community. That's the only reason I posted all of this in here, not to call you out, but to help everybody else understand my frustration, and what I believe to be the frustration of many of the other really good players as it relates to the community and, specifically, DGz.
I received a private message in my inbox a couple days later from a player who actually did have a moment of self-reflection and that motivated me to post this because in his message he mentioned how he would've paid money to take a peek behind the curtains and see a conversation between a couple of dedicated players.
Motivated by the person whom I seemed to have inspire, here's a look into one of the many conversations Michael and I have had over the past year. It's page one of seven out of the five different conversations we had talking about Wind-Ups between YCS Providence and the end of the September 2011 format. This took place between Christmas and New Year's Day. We also talked on DuelingNetwork and so on. Note that we went through many different card choices and builds and this is just a peek into the middle of our testing. Enjoy!
Samuel
@ Wind-Up mirror matches
I'm torn on both D. Prison and Bottomless Trap Hole here. Bottomless is obviously a really strong card and removing their Carrier is often game. It also catches TKRO and a number of other monsters. Problem is when your opponent has the luxury of playing around it with Maestroke or already has TKRO on board. Prison, on the other hand, isn't as strong, but deals with Maestroke, Tiras and a TKRO already on board, card that Bottomless isn't so great against. Personally, I feel like BTH is too good and I generally just stay with a 2:1 ratio but I will keep that idea of having BTH going 1st and Prison going 2nd in mind. I kinda like it.
I'll also keep the hand trap ratios in mind.
Haha yeah before I only ran 2 TKROs but I realized it was so busted in the mirror I was going to side a 3rd without caring for who went first.
BTW I've become much less worried about taking Upstart out of the deck. If I need room, I need room. I'll say that it is typically against decks where I feel as though the LPs will matter. Chaos Dragons, maybe? I side differently pretty often, even for the same deck, depending on my feel for my opponent's playstyle and deck, though so I'm not sure when it happens and when it doesn't lol.
I don't know, I'm just not as concerned about the Shock Lock as you are. Like... if they do it and I don't have a hand trap, or a card (or combination of cards) that I feel is optimal during the course of an actual duel and not just a Turn 1 power play, then so be it. Even if I increase the count of anti-Shock Lock cards, there's no guarantee I'll have them, and that I'll even be able to get past it all if I do, as they could have Factory and Warning, too, or something redic. In summary, I just feel like the number of games having an increased number of cards for that scenario actually wins you the duel won't be as high as the number of optimal cards for the real games wins you.
I like leaving the CCDs in the deck... it's another reason I'm not too opposed to dropping down to 2 TKROs if we need the room. Then again, I don't know your playstyle. I've gotten asked a few times "How often do you win duels with less than 500 LPs? Seems like it happens really often when I watch you play". I don't mind taking a couple hits from a TKRO or a Rabbit or two.
When I'm siding into 3 TKRO, I side out 1 Mage, 1 Rabbit, 1 Sangan. To me, Mage is too vulnerable to TKRO, Maxx "C" and so forth, especially since I'm siding out a Wind-Up Rabbit. Sometimes I'll even side out a Factory, for those same reasons. Maybe the mirror is one of those times I side out Upstart(s)?
I'm still toying around what to do with CotH after siding. Probably take it out when siding D. Fissure. Probably. Probably keep it in otherwise? Then again, it's vulnerable to Maxx "C" and so forth. Thus far I've especially liked it against Rabbit so I can summon again after they've negated with Laggia, which is important because sometimes the clock they've got you on is so short.
@ Satoshi's message
It's only disappointing in that I was hoping there would be some non-obvious answers. We were completely right about their playstyle, and Dark Hole. That Snowman theory goes out the window if it's just there for the ever-popular Hero and Rabbit decks. Kinda odd they like Mind Crush that much. Is that all he said? No links to any OCG forums or Japanese YouTubes where we could find video? We could've also asked why they don't like Fiendish Chain but then again, it's more of a control card, so we probably already have our answer.
To go back to our previous conversation on the OCG playstyle, do you still respect them after hearing that directly from Satoshi? They've made one of the most skillful decks in the game into another Dark World, where when you lose to them you're just upset at how your opponent just opened better than you BUT not only that, your response isn't to build your "control" deck to withstand this but rather you just do what everybody else is doing, play the same deck, and hope you open better. This is pretty much how it's always been, too. The "A Hero Lives" deck that won the Japanese Championships, T.G. Agents, Samurai. YO. LO.
I still feel as though we don't need Dark Hole Game 1, though, even if our strategy is different. But that does reinforce our need to have it after siding.
It explains triple Dust and triple, quadruple or even quintuple D. Fissure and Macro. Your backrow will not stop me! You will NOT get your effects off (and possible OTK me) unless you have Heavy Storm!
@ DN
You really should just start doing match play. As much as you're on there it doesn't seem like it would take too long since you shouldn't lose for a while at the beginning. Soon enough you'll have playtesting grounds worthy of the YCS, kinda. It is still DN lol.
@ Prison and Fiendish versus Starlight Road and 2nd CotH
Exactly, it's usually just when they have more offense than you have defense, and you can't seem to get anything of your own on the board. The 2nd CotH can help there but can be inconsistent at other times. With Satoshi confirming they're just going hard over there, that's surely the reason for running 2 CotH. But we're looking for more of a balance between power and consistency. It seems solid as a tech.
D. Prison is usuuually awesome but there are definitely those times, and those matchups, where it's not so great and I seem to draw them in multiples. That, more than anything, is my justification for running Fiendish Chain and siding the 2nd Prison (I do still like having it in the side for when Fiendish Chain isn't that great ooor when they're both really good, like against Rabbit). Funny enough Fiendish Chain on Guiba, rather than Prison, is what allowed me to win one of those matches I described earlier, because I was able to take it with Mind Control to make a Shock Master.
Oh, that's another card. It makes sense they would only side Mind Control, just for the mirror match, if they're just focused on blowing of their opponents. Why have any interaction with your opponent's cards when you can just say Night Beam LET'S GO and plow right through their defenses and LPs? Feel more justified in running it.
Oh. Em. Gee.
That talk about Mind Control in the Wind-Up thread reminded me of a game I really wanted to tell you about but forgot after the match was finished. Opponent goes first, summons TGU, goes into Carrier, gets Rabbit. Whew! He sets one and ends. I MST his backrow, summon Sangan, attempt to crash into Wind-Up Rabbit and he banished. Ha. Haha. Hahahahahaha. Mind Control Carrier. Detatch, search Rabbit, banish Carrier, overlay for Leviair, take his Rabbit. Haha. Hahahahaha. GET DESTROYED. Sooo awesome to use Carrier and still have yours in your extra.
EDIT: Realized that, if you count CotH as the 3rd Rat or 17th monster we've got a ratio of 17:10:10 plus Upstarts. Sounds like such a good ratio, almost like the 'ol 20:10:10.
That talk about Mind Control in the Wind-Up thread reminded me of a game I really wanted to tell you about but forgot after the match was finished. Opponent goes first, summons TGU, goes into Carrier, gets Rabbit. Whew! He sets one and ends. I MST his backrow, summon Sangan, attempt to crash into Wind-Up Rabbit and he banished. Ha. Haha. Hahahahahaha. Mind Control Carrier. Detatch, search Rabbit, banish Carrier, overlay for Leviair, take his Rabbit. Haha. Hahahahaha. GET DESTROYED. Sooo awesome to use Carrier and still have yours in your extra.
EDIT: Realized that, if you count CotH as the 3rd Rat or 17th monster we've got a ratio of 17:10:10 plus Upstarts. Sounds like such a good ratio, almost like the 'ol 20:10:10.
Yeah, I'm not so sure on BTH and D. Prison. Prison was really good when people were still playing around Needle Ceiling but it doesn't really seem like people care about it too much anymore. I actually think BTH has more merit than before because of that, I just hate seeing it in my opening hand and staring down a turn 1 TKRO. That's almost as bad as Maity or even Shock Master! lol. TKROs such a beast. BTH > D. Prison when going first obviously but I just keep the 1 copy of D. Prison in when going 2nd. Not sure on keeping BTHs in.. if we were siding a copy of Compulsory or Fiendish Chain, those could be nice replacements. Again, just toying around with side stuff and theory-ohing a bit. None of this really matters until we start cracking down hard on the side.
I know what you mean by saying you want cards that are optimal outside of our opponents opening broken. Even if you open Compulsory, Fiendish Chain, or Book, it's still really hard to comeback. But having Effect Veiler or Maxx "C" actually gives you the advantage. It turns their Mag Shark into an advantageous position for you. Trading Veiler to make them xyz into Maestroke or set a couple backrow and pass or stopping them from locking you out for free with Maxx "C" is just too good to ignore. The fact that Maxx "C" can stun them and Veiler can keep you alive at any point of the game makes running 2 of each worthwhile to me. Save me from an opponent's nut hand? Check. Still useful mid and late game, too? Check.
Speaking of hand traps, that's a reason I keep the 3rd Mage in when I'm playing against the mirror. What you said is true yeah, but maxing Mage and having 2 pushes is really great when their hand traps come in. If they stop my first Mag Shark, having another one to fall back on is so valuable. You could say Ratting back your Mage is the same thing but we're only running 2 and idk about you but I summon Leviair almost every mirror I play, so that leaves me with 1 Rat left to try to pull off the combo. I want my Rats to grind, with another Mage to try to go off if they stop my Rats (or vice versa). I'd feel better siding out the 3rd Mage if we were running 3 Rats. I don't want to rely on CotH too much since MSTs are maxed game 2 and yeah I know, if they are MSTing CotH then they aren't MSTing Factory but it doesn't always work out like that when I play. I'll try 2 Mage though, even though it's still nuts on its own if they don't have TKRO or are godhanding you.
How has 2 TKRO 2 CCD been post sidedecking? Have you ever drawn too many normal summons?
Rabbit is definitely where CotH shines. I also wouldn't take it out in the mirror. It's vulnerable to Maxx "C" but pretty much everything in your deck is already. Remember you can always chain Call to something else of yours getting Maxx "C"'d. Sometimes, Wind-Up mirrors remind me Inzektor mirrors... keep pushing and whoever can't stop a push loses. Especially when Factories are involved. While Shock Master on traps, chain Call on Rat-Shark for game isn't going to be very relevant, reviving a Rat or something else after your normal summon was stopped seems really good.
Yeah, that's all he said =/ I can see why they like Mind Crush so much though. Stop your opponent from going off, draw draw draw, then OTK. I'm glad something came out of their decklists. On the flip-side, it doesn't seem like such a hot strategy over there because everyone is doing it. Could it be different over here? People like you and me building our decks to "Your backrow won't stop me, you will NOT get your effects off unless you have Heavy Storm" could work? It's something to play around with I guess, lol. The best players in Japan play like that and there are always upsets here when bad players beat good ones like that. If we did it - and used our skill to know when to switch to control - it might show pretty good results. Thing is idk if I could play like that.
I tried getting my Match rating up but it was taking so longg before haha. Especially when it's just going to reset in March.. I'm just taking Dalton's account over since it's already at 109-24, 882. Better not go on a losing streak, I'm still halfway behind you but slow and steady wins the race
I know what you mean by saying you want cards that are optimal outside of our opponents opening broken. Even if you open Compulsory, Fiendish Chain, or Book, it's still really hard to comeback. But having Effect Veiler or Maxx "C" actually gives you the advantage. It turns their Mag Shark into an advantageous position for you. Trading Veiler to make them xyz into Maestroke or set a couple backrow and pass or stopping them from locking you out for free with Maxx "C" is just too good to ignore. The fact that Maxx "C" can stun them and Veiler can keep you alive at any point of the game makes running 2 of each worthwhile to me. Save me from an opponent's nut hand? Check. Still useful mid and late game, too? Check.
Speaking of hand traps, that's a reason I keep the 3rd Mage in when I'm playing against the mirror. What you said is true yeah, but maxing Mage and having 2 pushes is really great when their hand traps come in. If they stop my first Mag Shark, having another one to fall back on is so valuable. You could say Ratting back your Mage is the same thing but we're only running 2 and idk about you but I summon Leviair almost every mirror I play, so that leaves me with 1 Rat left to try to pull off the combo. I want my Rats to grind, with another Mage to try to go off if they stop my Rats (or vice versa). I'd feel better siding out the 3rd Mage if we were running 3 Rats. I don't want to rely on CotH too much since MSTs are maxed game 2 and yeah I know, if they are MSTing CotH then they aren't MSTing Factory but it doesn't always work out like that when I play. I'll try 2 Mage though, even though it's still nuts on its own if they don't have TKRO or are godhanding you.
How has 2 TKRO 2 CCD been post sidedecking? Have you ever drawn too many normal summons?
Rabbit is definitely where CotH shines. I also wouldn't take it out in the mirror. It's vulnerable to Maxx "C" but pretty much everything in your deck is already. Remember you can always chain Call to something else of yours getting Maxx "C"'d. Sometimes, Wind-Up mirrors remind me Inzektor mirrors... keep pushing and whoever can't stop a push loses. Especially when Factories are involved. While Shock Master on traps, chain Call on Rat-Shark for game isn't going to be very relevant, reviving a Rat or something else after your normal summon was stopped seems really good.
Yeah, that's all he said =/ I can see why they like Mind Crush so much though. Stop your opponent from going off, draw draw draw, then OTK. I'm glad something came out of their decklists. On the flip-side, it doesn't seem like such a hot strategy over there because everyone is doing it. Could it be different over here? People like you and me building our decks to "Your backrow won't stop me, you will NOT get your effects off unless you have Heavy Storm" could work? It's something to play around with I guess, lol. The best players in Japan play like that and there are always upsets here when bad players beat good ones like that. If we did it - and used our skill to know when to switch to control - it might show pretty good results. Thing is idk if I could play like that.
I tried getting my Match rating up but it was taking so longg before haha. Especially when it's just going to reset in March.. I'm just taking Dalton's account over since it's already at 109-24, 882. Better not go on a losing streak, I'm still halfway behind you but slow and steady wins the race
Compulsory has been great in testing today and Chain has been so-so. Never bad but never really that good.
Hahaha, yesssssssss! Such an awesome play haha. One time I had Rabbit, Mind Control'd Zenmaity, got Mage with Shark in hand and used the Rabbit to banish Maity so I had room to OTK. Lmao. Get fucking wreckedd. Mind Control should just have a picture of Zenmaity getting blown up on it. Hahah.
Mmm, I love 20/10/10. Perhaps why the deck has been drawing so well?
EDIT: My fiance is having girls night at a friend's house and I have nothinggggggg at all to do tonight. Maybe hit up the gym but other than that, DN DN DN time! Watchout for Daltonbousman at that #1 spot in the rankings tomorrow morning
UGH. Won 5 matches in a row, disconnected the next 3. Maybe I won't catch up to you lol
EDIT: Got Sean Shakir with a 2300 Maestroke. Hah!
EDIT: Got Sean Shakir with a 2300 Maestroke. Hah!
EVERYONE in singles runs DW. urghhhh. I lost to a guy named Synchro Master who talked hella shit, kept messaging me saying I wouldn't rematch him so I threw 3 Imps in my maindeck and hit a Mind Crush on Shark with it. Call Dalton, open some M&Ms and walk back to the computer.
Join a game and lose RPS. Open Imps. Uh.. damn. Opponent goes first. Upstart. Omg. Allure. Yesss. Set 4, activate Dragged Down. PUICE!
Join a game and lose RPS. Open Imps. Uh.. damn. Opponent goes first. Upstart. Omg. Allure. Yesss. Set 4, activate Dragged Down. PUICE!
LOLOL. That's AWESOME. Now my favorite Steinman story.
Played in lolcals today and almost lost Round 1 to Prophecy because I had TKRO over CCD in route to a Game 1 loss. Then got Mage-Shark'ed Games 1 and 3. Beat Rabbit. Play another mirror match and this time he Mage-Sharks me with the TBU-Hunter-Emeral combo since they were allowing Duel Terminal cards in this one. Great. Doesn't matter because the next game, I win. Then the game after that, he opens TGU-Factory and I can't stop it BUT I gotta say, D. Prison (and Mirror Force) come in handy (over BTH) because I did go on to win that game and match! Next round opponent rolls a 2 and I roll a 1. Lose the die roll AGAIN. Rabbit. Oh, great. I fight through that Rabbit, his backrow, his blind space, that happened to work out, and he topdecks Heavy Storm. Game 2, exact same topdeck. *sigh* Perhaps I'm not done with Starlight Road yet, after all. IDK, man. Basically, I won every game that I actually had a chance, however slim, in.
There's a "case tournament" tomorrow (4 boxes for 1st, 2 for 2nd, 1 for 3rd and 4th, half for 5-8th) and I should be able to borrow the CCDs so I'm excited to try them out in an actual tournament setting.
Played in lolcals today and almost lost Round 1 to Prophecy because I had TKRO over CCD in route to a Game 1 loss. Then got Mage-Shark'ed Games 1 and 3. Beat Rabbit. Play another mirror match and this time he Mage-Sharks me with the TBU-Hunter-Emeral combo since they were allowing Duel Terminal cards in this one. Great. Doesn't matter because the next game, I win. Then the game after that, he opens TGU-Factory and I can't stop it BUT I gotta say, D. Prison (and Mirror Force) come in handy (over BTH) because I did go on to win that game and match! Next round opponent rolls a 2 and I roll a 1. Lose the die roll AGAIN. Rabbit. Oh, great. I fight through that Rabbit, his backrow, his blind space, that happened to work out, and he topdecks Heavy Storm. Game 2, exact same topdeck. *sigh* Perhaps I'm not done with Starlight Road yet, after all. IDK, man. Basically, I won every game that I actually had a chance, however slim, in.
There's a "case tournament" tomorrow (4 boxes for 1st, 2 for 2nd, 1 for 3rd and 4th, half for 5-8th) and I should be able to borrow the CCDs so I'm excited to try them out in an actual tournament setting.
I'll try to get back to everything you said above later on (tomorrow night or Sunday), but for now I just wanted to give a report on today and give my thoughts going into a legit tournament tomorrow, and maybe see if I got any feedback from you come tomorrow morning before I head over.
Expecting lots of Wind-Ups tomorrow and with they way they were all playing tonight, I would like to tech a copy of Needle Ceiling in the side deck but space is sooooo tight right now.
Had some extra room in the side since (today only) I was using TKROs (hence Mirror Force) so I was able to side Tsukyi against Rabbit and I drew it right after he summoned a TKRO. The next turn or two I had Reaper vs. hit Reaper (other cards for each of us) but I summoned her, flipped his down, used Mind Control, attacked to discard with my Reaper, flipped his aaand.... he activated Vanity's Empitness. :-/
Feel like you might be right about 2 Veiler 2 Maxx "C". Well, it's either that or 2 Fiendish Chain (between the main and side. Pretty sure Dark Hole was useless when I sided it in against the mirror. Feel like Fiendish > Veiler if we're using SLR, which is, of course, TBD. Shortage of side deck space also obviously an issue.
Side Deck:
2 TKROs
2 Reapers
2 Maxx "C"
1 Effect Veiler
1 Dark Hole
1 Soul Taker
2 D. Fissure
2 Dust Tornado
2nd D. Prison
1 Mirror Force
You know, YOLO. I'm probably going to do a no-no and run 2 Upstart Golbin to make room for Starlight Road and see how it goes tomorrow. I really like the sound of having 2 Maxx "C", 1 Effect Veiler, 2 Fiendish Chain, 2 D. Prison, 1 Force, 1 Compulsory between the main and side deck for the different matchups and a SLR to protect it all.
I feel like Tsukyi right now is a "nice to have" and Soul Taker is more the card I'd like to have. Obviously good against Chaos Dragons, Hero and so forth but I really love anything that one-for-ones with Rabbit. You know, the only card that really "plusses" in that deck is Rescue Rabbit. Everything else comes from grinding and playing good Yu-Gi-Oh. Unless I get ran over, which is less common if I have more cards to bait their negations and Lances, I'll be able to play better YGO than them and WUs sure as heck plus more than them.
The maindeck trap lineup is soooo tight right now. Side deck space is soooooo tight right now.
Feel like it's important to have a beefy trap lineup and don't want to cut anything for SLR so yeah, maybe one less Upstart is really the way to go.
Maybe I'll just go 2 Veiler and no Maxx "C" since it SUCKS when they go Mage-Shark and you have to trigger their Mage in order to even try to get over their field sometimes. *sigh*
I've been playing around with TKROs in the main again. After playing against Water alot more I've found that I actually do want it against them. Shutting off Undine, Pike and Megalo is just too good. If you can protect it from Linde and Sphere it's pretty busted. Plus its another level 4 to help go into Abyss Dweller and Shock Master. Wind-Up plays so many traps so maybe it's fine? It's obviously still pretty eh against Rabbit and Agents but I mean if you can protect it from what it's weak against (Trooper, Venus, Saber, etc) and save it for the important cards like Hyperion, Kristya, TGU, Rabbit then it really doesn't seem like a bad g1 card. Only happens in a perfect world etc etc, but it's something to look at again I think. It's also one of those cards that'll save you from Heavy -> OTK. Used it at YCS Indy in GKs so they'd need more than Trunade to do anything to me. Same category as Effect Veiler.
EDIT: Someone made a good point.. maybe Thunderbird and Heliotrope is the reason TKRO isn't as popular over there in the OCG?
EDIT: Someone made a good point.. maybe Thunderbird and Heliotrope is the reason TKRO isn't as popular over there in the OCG?
I just checked out that 400-person OCG tournament and there were a few Wind-Ups in there. I mean you'd like it to make it past the Top 16 but there were still three of them in there. That's almost 20% which isn't that bad considering all of the cards they have over there.
Funny how TKRO was in a couple side decks and the 3rd was maining Verz Thunderbird. 2/3 were only running 2 Rats! Seems like they've got their spell lineup down. All of them are running the same ten cards. Cardcard - D is only in one list. The one with Thunderbirds is using 3 Veiler and a Fiendish Chain, giving him a 13-card trap lineup. Meanwhile, the other lists are playing fourteen actual traps. D. Prison has made its way back into their maindecks. lol they aren't using Mind Crush anymore? There's one that's siding Debunk, though. 2/3 are siding Dark Hole. Seems like for them 2 Veiler 2 Maxx "C" is the magic number for the mirror match, after siding. Snowman remains staple at 2. Tooons of backrow removal. 11 cards of generic removal (Fissure and Macro) between the three of them, so almost 4 per.
On not siding Maxx "C" anymore, I don't know, man. Like, on one hand it hurts soo bad when my opponent has Laggia, backrow and Maxx "C" and it's not just against Rabbit. It's so frustrating, in that so many decks have the ability to just drop an enormous field and then Maxx "C"! Another Maxx "C"! Thought you were done? Another Maxx "C"! My opponent used three of them on me in Game 3 "on the bubble" of that case tournament. Feels like they always have multiples and it makes it nearly impossible for me to make comebacks. It just sucks because even though I'm constantly playing around it, I still always get put into a position where it hurts me soo much whereas it feels like when I drop it, I'm still in a really awkward position. Never works for me but always works for my opponent. It's really strange.
Believe I told you, but taking out Bottomless worked out really well on Friday night when I went second in the mirror match. I've beaten that player 3/3 times over the past couple of weekends. How is it that I can own this guy, yet he tops the last couple of regionals he's gone to, including going undefeated in one of them? Then on Saturday lose to the three worst players I went against? Even the "better' ones like the one I'm 3-0 against, he didn't know you can banish Rabbit, trigger Mage then Factory, search Shark, special Mage and then trigger the Shark you just searched.
Funny how TKRO was in a couple side decks and the 3rd was maining Verz Thunderbird. 2/3 were only running 2 Rats! Seems like they've got their spell lineup down. All of them are running the same ten cards. Cardcard - D is only in one list. The one with Thunderbirds is using 3 Veiler and a Fiendish Chain, giving him a 13-card trap lineup. Meanwhile, the other lists are playing fourteen actual traps. D. Prison has made its way back into their maindecks. lol they aren't using Mind Crush anymore? There's one that's siding Debunk, though. 2/3 are siding Dark Hole. Seems like for them 2 Veiler 2 Maxx "C" is the magic number for the mirror match, after siding. Snowman remains staple at 2. Tooons of backrow removal. 11 cards of generic removal (Fissure and Macro) between the three of them, so almost 4 per.
On not siding Maxx "C" anymore, I don't know, man. Like, on one hand it hurts soo bad when my opponent has Laggia, backrow and Maxx "C" and it's not just against Rabbit. It's so frustrating, in that so many decks have the ability to just drop an enormous field and then Maxx "C"! Another Maxx "C"! Thought you were done? Another Maxx "C"! My opponent used three of them on me in Game 3 "on the bubble" of that case tournament. Feels like they always have multiples and it makes it nearly impossible for me to make comebacks. It just sucks because even though I'm constantly playing around it, I still always get put into a position where it hurts me soo much whereas it feels like when I drop it, I'm still in a really awkward position. Never works for me but always works for my opponent. It's really strange.
Believe I told you, but taking out Bottomless worked out really well on Friday night when I went second in the mirror match. I've beaten that player 3/3 times over the past couple of weekends. How is it that I can own this guy, yet he tops the last couple of regionals he's gone to, including going undefeated in one of them? Then on Saturday lose to the three worst players I went against? Even the "better' ones like the one I'm 3-0 against, he didn't know you can banish Rabbit, trigger Mage then Factory, search Shark, special Mage and then trigger the Shark you just searched.
I know it sounds like I'm whining or something but maaan I'm actually trying to dig deep, trying tounderstand if there's an explanation or if it's ya know, just Yu-Gi-Oh.
Hadn't drawn TKRO and CCD too much after siding BUT you did see, first hand, that it's a winning strategy!
Fiendish Chain
We'll continue to discuss MST, I'm sure, but one card we didn't talk about last night after discussing the rise in Inzektors and Dark World is Fiendish Chain. Pretty much everything is terrible against Dark World, but Fiendish Chain is good against Inzektors, Rabbit, Water and Wind-Ups. Then there's Agents but even against them it's not terrible if you can freeze a Hyperion so it doesn't destroy anything by effect or battle. TGU, too. It's just a rough look at it, and I'm sure some cards could be moved up or down a catagory, but I feel as though the results would be about the same:
Inzektors
Good - Fiendish Chain, Book of Moon
Okay - Compulsory
Poor - Dimensional Prison, Mirror Force, Messenger of Peace
Wind-Ups
Good - Fiendish Chain, Compulsory, Book of Moon
Okay - Dimensional Prison, Mirror Force, Messenger of Peace
Poor -
Rabbit
Good - Fiendish Chain, Compulsory, Dimensional Prison, Mirror Force, Book of Moon, Messenger of Peace
Okay -
Poor -
Agents
Good - Dimensional Prison, Book of Moon, Messenger of Peace
Okay - Mirror Force, Compulsory
Poor - Fiendish Chain
Dark World
Good - Dimensional Prison, Messenger of Peace
Okay -
Poor - Fiendish Chain, Compulsory, Mirror Force, Book of Moon
Water
Good - Fiendish Chain, Messenger of Peace
Okay - Dimensional Prison, Mirror Force, Book of Moon
Poor - Compulsory
Fiendish Chain: 2
Good - 4
Okay - 0
Poor -2
Dimensional Prison: 2
Good -3
Okay -2
Poor -1
Mirror Force: -1
Good -1
Okay -3
Poor -2
Compulsory: 0
Good -2
Okay -2
Poor -2
Book of Moon: 3
Good -4
Okay -1
Poor -1
Messenger of Peace: 3
Good - 4
Okay - 1
Poor - 1
Seems like a pretty accurate gauge for how many we should play! But really, it does seem like a good indication as to what are the best traps right now and Dimensional Prison and Fiendish Chain are pretty even, and should likely be our first choices.
16
3x Wind-Up Shark
3x Wind-Up Rabbit
3x Wind-Up Magician
2x Wind-Up Rat
2x Tour Guide from Underworld
1x Sangan
2x Cardcar – D
13
3x Upstart Goblin
1x Monster Reborn
1x Mind Control
1x Heavy Storm
3x Mystical Space Typhoon
3x Wind-Up Factory
1x Book of Moon
13
1x Call of the Haunted
2x Dimensional Prison
2x Fiendish Chain
2x Bottomless Trap Hole
2x Torrential Tribute
2x Solemn Warning
1x Solemn Judgment
1x Starlight Road
That leaves us with 42 cards. Perhaps we should take out MST for 41.
I do want to take this opportunity to discuss a card we had been using that I'm not so sure about now: Call of the Haunted. At first this card was doing pretty good for me but has since offered very few plays. I had been expecting it to give me more plays but instead I've mostly used it to secure ones I already had control of. There hasn't been as much Mage-Rabbit, Rat, Sangan or TKRO abuse as I had hoped.
The only memorable CotH plays came at the case tournament this past weekend when I chained it to my opponent's Monster Reborn and then, during the same match, I activated it during my opponent's end phase to get a Magician, triggered Shark, and special summoned Rat with Magician. Then on my turn, I turned Rat to attack mode and activated its effect! It's broken in the mirror, or was during that match, is good against Rabbit and Agents for making an extra push, but it can be pretty mediocre against Inzektors, Dark World and Water (having to avoid their Marksman and our own D. Fissure). Damn you, DN. lol.
Could also just run 1 Prison 1 Fiendish. I don't know. Maor testing needed...
EDIT: Forgot about Messenger of Peace since we hadn't been using it anymore. I went ahead and added it and I mean, I guess it's pretty good. But really, my problem with it is its effectiveness as a card. It has good matchups but often I'd rather just have any kinda removal against Rabbit ect ect. Then there are those times where they attack under it with TGU ect ect. We are running 3 Mage and Starlight right now, though. Kinda like how it diverts Grapha's attention so you can just D. Prison it (don't have the DDV!). Terrible against Inzektors. They go so far as to maindeck it now.
BTW I'm really happy about dropping Acid Golem. I haven't had a single game that was determined by whether or not I had him in my Extra Deck or not. It's nice to have the additional slot in the Extra Deck. Soul's been solid. There have been a few times where I would've liked to go into Zenmaioh, like against that Dark World player that sided into Ryko and managed to fight out of the Shock Lock. Then again, that might be the only time where I wanted it and needed it (can't remember for certain), as opposed to it actually making a difference (whether they had Fiendish Chain or Compulsory for Shock Master, Book of Moon through Shock Master or just won the game right there).
Here's the most significant reason I can think of for running Soldier-Invoker: it's a replacement for Carrier. If you open up Tour Guide, you're often reluctant to go straight into Carrier, aren't you? Because you know you only have one, especially if you're not running Avarice, you might just go into Zenmaines and wait it out. Even if you have Factory, you have to think twice about bringing Carrier out if you're not sure you can protect it. So I thought it would be good to see what kinda plays there are with Invoker instead of Carrier. I mean... if you look at it that way, Invoker-Soldier being a watered-down (hah) Carrier in a deck that doesn't run Avarice or Emeral, then that alone seems pretty broken. I could be wrong, but anyway, here's what I've been able to think of.
From what I was able to work out, you would be able to make Invoker, Rank 4 xyz and a Rank 5 xyz OR Invoker, Butterfly and Shock Master with Mage-Shark. Really, the drawback is that you're not able to do 8,000 with him. But you are able to do 6,000 with Shock Master if you drew out a Warning with Carrier. Tour Guide and Shark without Carrier will still give you access to a 1600 body plus a Rank 4 or 5 xyz (instead of a Rank 3 xyz and an Shark in hand). If you have Rabbit already on the field when you Mage Shark you can have a Rat rfp before you make Invoker and Shock Master (no Butterfly).
I just wish the card had more synergy with Wind-Up Magician. On their own, it's either a Rank 4 or 5 and during the intense combos, by the time they're both on the field, there's simply not enough room (assuming it was brought out by Invoker). Then again, Soldier-Mage-Factory with Carrier in the Extra Deck OTKs if you have a Level 3 Wind-Up in grave or you can get a Shark in grave using Adreus or Zenmaioh's effect. But basically any Wind-Up with Mage and Factory does that. The advantage here is that you can make a Rank 5 xyz in the process. The catch is that Soldier is a once while face-up on the field effect, like Rat, Hunter and Mage so good luck making that work. 1800 is much more difficult to keep around than 2200. Of course, Soldier and Factory's pretty good. First you boost him search Shark. Next turn summon Shark, boost it, search Rat (or whatever) and go into a Rank 5 xyz. Could just get Rabbit, too, if you're afraid of Torrential... but not as broken.
Been trying to find out if they run Zenmaister just for the TGU-Shark OTK or he also works well with Soldier but I haven't found any spectacular combos yet.
Soldier-Shark is obviously a Rank 5 xyz. What's nice about it is that you could attack over a TKRO beforegoing into Adreus to destroy another one of their face-up cards. Another feasible application of this: attack over Centipede and Dragonfly before using Adreus to pop the other Centipede.
EDIT: Oh, didn't realize Soldier goes back down to 1800 and Level 4 at the end phase. Boo.
If you have Rat returning from Rabbit and you drew (or had) another Rabbit and a Mage in grave (don't feel like this is an uncommon scenario) you can bring back Mage with Rat, banish Rat for Mage, get Rabbit overlay Rabbits for Invoker, get Soldier and xyz into a Rank 4 for as much as 4100 damage. Obvious advantage is having two bodies to attack with while still having a Rat rfp. You could also use the Rabbits to go into Leviair, get Rat back, then make Invoker, giving you 3 bodies to attack with for as much as 5800. That's not too bad, even if it is only one more body and 1600 more than you could do otherwise.
There's also the alternative scenario where you have Rat returning from Rabbit and summon Mage first. Rat get Rabbit, Mage get Mage, Rabbit banish Rat, Mage get Level 3, overlay for Invoker and go into Shock Master with a Rat rfp. Now we're talking. The difference here being that you have a 1600 body to attack with, as opposed to the same play you could make now with a Rabbit dangling in defense mode. Again, you could use Leviair to get 3 bodies (without the rfp Rat).
If you drew Shark with a Rat coming back suddenly you have access to a Rank 5 and a 1600 body (instead of a used Rat floating on the field in defense).
From what I was able to work out, you would be able to make Invoker, Rank 4 xyz and a Rank 5 xyz OR Invoker, Butterfly and Shock Master with Mage-Shark. Really, the drawback is that you're not able to do 8,000 with him. But you are able to do 6,000 with Shock Master if you drew out a Warning with Carrier. Tour Guide and Shark without Carrier will still give you access to a 1600 body plus a Rank 4 or 5 xyz (instead of a Rank 3 xyz and an Shark in hand). If you have Rabbit already on the field when you Mage Shark you can have a Rat rfp before you make Invoker and Shock Master (no Butterfly).
I just wish the card had more synergy with Wind-Up Magician. On their own, it's either a Rank 4 or 5 and during the intense combos, by the time they're both on the field, there's simply not enough room (assuming it was brought out by Invoker). Then again, Soldier-Mage-Factory with Carrier in the Extra Deck OTKs if you have a Level 3 Wind-Up in grave or you can get a Shark in grave using Adreus or Zenmaioh's effect. But basically any Wind-Up with Mage and Factory does that. The advantage here is that you can make a Rank 5 xyz in the process. The catch is that Soldier is a once while face-up on the field effect, like Rat, Hunter and Mage so good luck making that work. 1800 is much more difficult to keep around than 2200. Of course, Soldier and Factory's pretty good. First you boost him search Shark. Next turn summon Shark, boost it, search Rat (or whatever) and go into a Rank 5 xyz. Could just get Rabbit, too, if you're afraid of Torrential... but not as broken.
Been trying to find out if they run Zenmaister just for the TGU-Shark OTK or he also works well with Soldier but I haven't found any spectacular combos yet.
Soldier-Shark is obviously a Rank 5 xyz. What's nice about it is that you could attack over a TKRO beforegoing into Adreus to destroy another one of their face-up cards. Another feasible application of this: attack over Centipede and Dragonfly before using Adreus to pop the other Centipede.
EDIT: Oh, didn't realize Soldier goes back down to 1800 and Level 4 at the end phase. Boo.
If you have Rat returning from Rabbit and you drew (or had) another Rabbit and a Mage in grave (don't feel like this is an uncommon scenario) you can bring back Mage with Rat, banish Rat for Mage, get Rabbit overlay Rabbits for Invoker, get Soldier and xyz into a Rank 4 for as much as 4100 damage. Obvious advantage is having two bodies to attack with while still having a Rat rfp. You could also use the Rabbits to go into Leviair, get Rat back, then make Invoker, giving you 3 bodies to attack with for as much as 5800. That's not too bad, even if it is only one more body and 1600 more than you could do otherwise.
There's also the alternative scenario where you have Rat returning from Rabbit and summon Mage first. Rat get Rabbit, Mage get Mage, Rabbit banish Rat, Mage get Level 3, overlay for Invoker and go into Shock Master with a Rat rfp. Now we're talking. The difference here being that you have a 1600 body to attack with, as opposed to the same play you could make now with a Rabbit dangling in defense mode. Again, you could use Leviair to get 3 bodies (without the rfp Rat).
If you drew Shark with a Rat coming back suddenly you have access to a Rank 5 and a 1600 body (instead of a used Rat floating on the field in defense).
Yeah haha, we were playing a rated match today and he messed up again, idk what's going on with him.
Anyways, yeah when I looked at it before and messaged you they had only posted the Top8 and it made me really concerned but Top16 is definitely fine especially with all the extra decks they have over there. I feel like we should continue to test Mind Crush even if they've stopped using it. I even talked to one of my opponents today after a match and he asked me for advice to better the Water matchup (his 2 losses at a Cali regs). I tabbed to youtube and before I could even type anything to him I came back and he said he had been testing Mind Crush the past couple of days and it's been great for him, but he expressed his worries about it being inconsistent and gimmicky. I told him he should keep testing it and to get back to me on it but it's nice to know we aren't the only ones trying it out! Debunk is another card I think we might want to look into more, too.
I was actually thinking the same thing about Maxx "C" in the shower today. It seems to fit best in aggressive decks that are just naturally ahead like Simon Agents and Nizar's Dallas deck last format. It lets them slow their opponent down and never let them catchup. And I mean yeah, you could use Maxx "C" to slow them down to your level too but even then they could push through and unless you have Veiler/Gorz/Trag or have Maxx "C" in conjunction with other traps you'll lose anyway. It just seems like in strategies like ours and even decks like Geargia, real traps do the job better than hand traps. Real traps also help against our opponent's hand traps, especially Mirror Force. So in that regard it seems win/win.
Effect Veiler is different in the sense that it actually stops them and I'm sure that's probably the reason you like it better. MAN, Shock Lock though.. idk how you can act so nonchalant about it. I want a chance to win all of the games I play. There aren't very many good options though. Maybe "man up" lol, and play 3 Veilers between the main and side..? It'll help against the ever popular Inzektors too. Something to think about as an alternative to Maxx "C".
TKRO + CCD was so sick! Just like Reaper + CCD is. I really like that. Fiendish Chain does sound really good right now. While what you said about every trap pretty much just sucking against DW you can put Book of Moon in the Okay section.. I mean the only thing I want from my traps in that matchup is protection for my Dweller or RFGing Grapha and Book protects + can get rid of one of their valuable DW monsters after using all their others going off. You don't know how bad I want to play 3 Book of Moon.. haha.
Also, you can't cut an MST and run 41 cards with Upstart:P Silly Sam.
Messenger seems like a card we'd run after Fiendish Chain and D. Prison. I definitely think it'd be a shoe-in if we weren't playing Upstarts but unless double Chain or Prison tests badly I think Messenger is out. There's just no room for it and it doesn't hold enough single-card value by just being a stall card. Right now I do like a line-up like this for the traps:
2 Torrential Tribute
2 Bottomless Trap Hole
2 D. Prison
2 Solemn Warning
2 Fiendish Chain
1 Solemn Judgment
And then maybe Starlight Road (If we decide against Invoker) and CotH. It's a hard card to talk about. A lot of the time it's let me do plays I never could without it and it's really neat in that regard. But there are so many times I draw it and think of how much better Pot of Avarice could've been in its place. I throw Avarice in sometimes just to see and it helped me win a mirror and Rabbit match. I don't really know what to say.. both cards are good and I don't want to play without at least 1 of them in my deck. Call is better at points of the game Avarice is dead in but past the first couple turns Avarice is just so much better to draw than Call. I don't know.
I play Acid Golem but that's only because Skill Drain DW is all the rage in singles. Yay!! Lol other than that I've needed Brilliant a couple times and didn't have him. Outside of DN singles I think Brilliant is the way to go. The only time I've needed Zenmaioh was today when I opened Rab-Shark-Shark vs a Rabbit player and had to go into Tiras when I tried to push but hit a Reaper. He had Guaiba over Maity next turn but I topped Book for his Dolkka so that was pretty lucky. Going back to that game I opened D. Prison and Fiendish Chain with that Shock Lock. Awesome cards to go with it.. so +1 for those traps! Haha.
Has Cardcar - D been really good for you? It keeps switching between TKRO and Reaper more recently for me. Today I messed around with a build that played Cardcar - D, Tragoedia and CotH and it was really cool lol. I was able to withstand a t1 Shock Lock because I went CCD, set 2 with Trag in hand and it allowed me to live and then Mage-Shark him back next turn backed with my own traps left there from t1. Trag also helped me against Sean to survive a huge Chaos Dragon push. I know it seems weird but if we continue to use CCD maybe we should think about testing Trag? If even just a single copy I feel like it would compliment the deck nicely. I know we've tried it before but we really didn't get too much testing with it before completely dropping it.
As far as Soldier-Invoker goes, I'll try to find the rest of the combos tonight. It's cool but idk man. An extra deck spot and a 2200 normal summon seems okay.. thing is, with CCD I haven't had the need for extra Rabbit or Sharks to trigger my Mages and Factories. That's my draw to it, other than being an extra Zenmaity. Like I told you before I had used my Zenmaity in a match and had Rat+Factory and Invoker let me go into Adreus and I ended up winning that game.
Writing this has made me extremly hungry lol, so I'm going to grab something to eat real quick then come back and write some more. Probably just show you what my deck looks like right now so we can start really cracking down on our builds.
Anyways, yeah when I looked at it before and messaged you they had only posted the Top8 and it made me really concerned but Top16 is definitely fine especially with all the extra decks they have over there. I feel like we should continue to test Mind Crush even if they've stopped using it. I even talked to one of my opponents today after a match and he asked me for advice to better the Water matchup (his 2 losses at a Cali regs). I tabbed to youtube and before I could even type anything to him I came back and he said he had been testing Mind Crush the past couple of days and it's been great for him, but he expressed his worries about it being inconsistent and gimmicky. I told him he should keep testing it and to get back to me on it but it's nice to know we aren't the only ones trying it out! Debunk is another card I think we might want to look into more, too.
I was actually thinking the same thing about Maxx "C" in the shower today. It seems to fit best in aggressive decks that are just naturally ahead like Simon Agents and Nizar's Dallas deck last format. It lets them slow their opponent down and never let them catchup. And I mean yeah, you could use Maxx "C" to slow them down to your level too but even then they could push through and unless you have Veiler/Gorz/Trag or have Maxx "C" in conjunction with other traps you'll lose anyway. It just seems like in strategies like ours and even decks like Geargia, real traps do the job better than hand traps. Real traps also help against our opponent's hand traps, especially Mirror Force. So in that regard it seems win/win.
Effect Veiler is different in the sense that it actually stops them and I'm sure that's probably the reason you like it better. MAN, Shock Lock though.. idk how you can act so nonchalant about it. I want a chance to win all of the games I play. There aren't very many good options though. Maybe "man up" lol, and play 3 Veilers between the main and side..? It'll help against the ever popular Inzektors too. Something to think about as an alternative to Maxx "C".
TKRO + CCD was so sick! Just like Reaper + CCD is. I really like that. Fiendish Chain does sound really good right now. While what you said about every trap pretty much just sucking against DW you can put Book of Moon in the Okay section.. I mean the only thing I want from my traps in that matchup is protection for my Dweller or RFGing Grapha and Book protects + can get rid of one of their valuable DW monsters after using all their others going off. You don't know how bad I want to play 3 Book of Moon.. haha.
Also, you can't cut an MST and run 41 cards with Upstart:P Silly Sam.
Messenger seems like a card we'd run after Fiendish Chain and D. Prison. I definitely think it'd be a shoe-in if we weren't playing Upstarts but unless double Chain or Prison tests badly I think Messenger is out. There's just no room for it and it doesn't hold enough single-card value by just being a stall card. Right now I do like a line-up like this for the traps:
2 Torrential Tribute
2 Bottomless Trap Hole
2 D. Prison
2 Solemn Warning
2 Fiendish Chain
1 Solemn Judgment
And then maybe Starlight Road (If we decide against Invoker) and CotH. It's a hard card to talk about. A lot of the time it's let me do plays I never could without it and it's really neat in that regard. But there are so many times I draw it and think of how much better Pot of Avarice could've been in its place. I throw Avarice in sometimes just to see and it helped me win a mirror and Rabbit match. I don't really know what to say.. both cards are good and I don't want to play without at least 1 of them in my deck. Call is better at points of the game Avarice is dead in but past the first couple turns Avarice is just so much better to draw than Call. I don't know.
I play Acid Golem but that's only because Skill Drain DW is all the rage in singles. Yay!! Lol other than that I've needed Brilliant a couple times and didn't have him. Outside of DN singles I think Brilliant is the way to go. The only time I've needed Zenmaioh was today when I opened Rab-Shark-Shark vs a Rabbit player and had to go into Tiras when I tried to push but hit a Reaper. He had Guaiba over Maity next turn but I topped Book for his Dolkka so that was pretty lucky. Going back to that game I opened D. Prison and Fiendish Chain with that Shock Lock. Awesome cards to go with it.. so +1 for those traps! Haha.
Has Cardcar - D been really good for you? It keeps switching between TKRO and Reaper more recently for me. Today I messed around with a build that played Cardcar - D, Tragoedia and CotH and it was really cool lol. I was able to withstand a t1 Shock Lock because I went CCD, set 2 with Trag in hand and it allowed me to live and then Mage-Shark him back next turn backed with my own traps left there from t1. Trag also helped me against Sean to survive a huge Chaos Dragon push. I know it seems weird but if we continue to use CCD maybe we should think about testing Trag? If even just a single copy I feel like it would compliment the deck nicely. I know we've tried it before but we really didn't get too much testing with it before completely dropping it.
As far as Soldier-Invoker goes, I'll try to find the rest of the combos tonight. It's cool but idk man. An extra deck spot and a 2200 normal summon seems okay.. thing is, with CCD I haven't had the need for extra Rabbit or Sharks to trigger my Mages and Factories. That's my draw to it, other than being an extra Zenmaity. Like I told you before I had used my Zenmaity in a match and had Rat+Factory and Invoker let me go into Adreus and I ended up winning that game.
Writing this has made me extremly hungry lol, so I'm going to grab something to eat real quick then come back and write some more. Probably just show you what my deck looks like right now so we can start really cracking down on our builds.
Also I lol'd pretty hard at that Water joke, lmao. Transmigration is another card that lets you re-use Zenmaity but idkk, it'll usually be used on 2 water monsters so it's probably not relevant enough to run it over something better.
16
3x Wind-Up Shark
3x Wind-Up Rabbit
3x Wind-Up Magician
2x Wind-Up Rat
2x Tour Guide from Underworld
1x Sangan
2x Cardcar – D
13
3x Upstart Goblin
1x Monster Reborn
1x Mind Control
1x Heavy Storm
2x Mystical Space Typhoon
3x Wind-Up Factory
1x Book of Moon
1x Pot of Avarice
11
2x Dimensional Prison
2x Fiendish Chain
2x Bottomless Trap Hole
2x Torrential Tribute
2x Solemn Warning
1x Solemn Judgment
15
2x TKRO
2x Reaper
2x Effect Veiler
3x D. Fissure
1x Dark Hole
1x Soul Taker
1x MST
2x Dust Tornado
1x Mirror Force
Tsukuyomi, Compulsory, Mind Crush, 3rd Effect Veiler are all things on my mind for the side too.
I'm really starting to like the idea of 3 D. Fissure. Drawing 2 doesn't hurt too badly and CCD/Reaper help with that a lot. I'm really sold on the TKROs, Reapers, 1-3 Veilers, 2-3 D. Fissures, Dark Hole, 2 Dust Tornadoes though. 10 at the least and 13 at the most. The Mirror Force can be another Rabbit card I think.. it's just also nice against Water and Dark World. Would like to fit Road back in too...
3x Wind-Up Shark
3x Wind-Up Rabbit
3x Wind-Up Magician
2x Wind-Up Rat
2x Tour Guide from Underworld
1x Sangan
2x Cardcar – D
13
3x Upstart Goblin
1x Monster Reborn
1x Mind Control
1x Heavy Storm
2x Mystical Space Typhoon
3x Wind-Up Factory
1x Book of Moon
1x Pot of Avarice
11
2x Dimensional Prison
2x Fiendish Chain
2x Bottomless Trap Hole
2x Torrential Tribute
2x Solemn Warning
1x Solemn Judgment
15
2x TKRO
2x Reaper
2x Effect Veiler
3x D. Fissure
1x Dark Hole
1x Soul Taker
1x MST
2x Dust Tornado
1x Mirror Force
Tsukuyomi, Compulsory, Mind Crush, 3rd Effect Veiler are all things on my mind for the side too.
I'm really starting to like the idea of 3 D. Fissure. Drawing 2 doesn't hurt too badly and CCD/Reaper help with that a lot. I'm really sold on the TKROs, Reapers, 1-3 Veilers, 2-3 D. Fissures, Dark Hole, 2 Dust Tornadoes though. 10 at the least and 13 at the most. The Mirror Force can be another Rabbit card I think.. it's just also nice against Water and Dark World. Would like to fit Road back in too...
Samuel
Did some asking around on Pojo and it's Warrior, not Soldier, that the OCG is using and it allows Rat to make Rank 4 xyz.
THAT explains it! It makes TOTAL sense, then. It's why they run so many Rank 4 xyz!
Dude, just thinking about that combo... imagine if you have Rat returning from Rabbit, you summon Magician, Rat eff for Warrior, get another Mage, Warrior eff, get Shark and then make a Rank 4 xyz and your Mage becomes a Shock Masta. Interesting.
Fortunately my combos and whatever ones you've done are still valid... they are just more flexible now.
Shock Master bring this guy out with Rat in hand is disgusting!
Soo I attempted to OTK with 2 Wind-Ups into Carrier with a Shark in hand and realized too late that I didn't have Golem or Brilliant to finish him off. I ended up going into Leviathan, Carrier, Butterfly with Rat in defense and a Compulsory set and an MST in hand, leaving him at 1900. BUT I realized that if you do this, you could well, it still wouldn't OTK but it would've been closer lol. Guess we need at least Golem or Brilliant.
Carrier Mage Shark Mage
Carrier Mage Shark (to Level 5) Mage Rat
Carrier Shark Rat Butterfly
Carrier Shark Rat Butterfly Rat (revived from the graveyard)
Carrier Shark Butterfly Invoker Warrior
Carrier Butterfly Invoker Rank 5 xyz
15 + 21 + 16 + 26 = 78
Realized when you Mage-Shark into a Rank 4 xyz and Rank 5 xyz with Warrior you can boost the Mage in attack position. It's not really a big deal but at least you have a 1800 and 1300 defenders in case something goes wrong.
EDIT: Should be start siding Trap Stun or 7 Tools over Dust Tornado? DDV's really getting on my nerves. lol.
That was crazy! I just had a duel go all the way until I had 1 card left in my deck. I was out of everything, monsters, xyz, and my win condition ended up being Monster Reborn to get Rat, Leviair a Rabbit back to go with the TKRO I got last turn, Rat eff to get Warrior, Rabbit remove Rat, Warrior boost Rabbit, go into Shock Master with TKRO Rabbit and Warrior just so I could have a monster big enough to attack over Honest and then call monster effs on a direct attack next turn. ty Fiendish Chain being my only out to Reaper!
I went ahead and put in 2 Duality since we had 2 Upstart in those slots. Figured while space matched up I might as well give it a try. I've drawn it once (sided it out); my opponent had a TKRO on board.
Warrior's been good! Invoker, eh. I usually just bring him out with Mage.
My opponent has Tour Guide every time I go into the 1st turn Shock Lock with BTH or D. Prison.
Really tempted to just take out the Upstarts altogether and add in Starlight Road and... well maybe I'll just run 1 Upstart. lol. But WTH are we going to do about Extra Deck space??
Been having to play without the Wolf because it's TCG. OMG. Now that I know he's there I've been wanting to xyz into him all the time. Being able to play around Torrential or just pop their face down monster and not worry about Reaper or Dyna is niiiice. Speaking of, how do you feel about that card? I find myself playing around it quite a bit because it can really be devastating. Shock Lock answer.
BTW Billy ran Night Beam at the beginning of the format in Karakuri Geargia. I'm not saying we should use it, since for some reason we're still debating the 3rd MST (which I hear is staple staple after the new cards come out because all of the Firefirst cards and so forth), but just saying we wouldn't be the first to do this shameful act. lol.
Nearly got Sean for 3 Geargiaccel. Would've but I wasn't paying enough attention, toggling browser tabs, and thought he already searched them all. Still, Mind Crush for the +1.
Rethinking Messenger > 2nd D. Prison. Could just be matchups today, though. Who knows, maybe dat Raigeki Break.
Carrier Mage Shark Mage
Carrier Mage Shark (to Level 5) Mage Rat
Carrier Shark Rat Butterfly
Carrier Shark Rat Butterfly Rat (revived from the graveyard)
Carrier Shark Butterfly Invoker Warrior
Carrier Butterfly Invoker Rank 5 xyz
15 + 21 + 16 + 26 = 78
Realized when you Mage-Shark into a Rank 4 xyz and Rank 5 xyz with Warrior you can boost the Mage in attack position. It's not really a big deal but at least you have a 1800 and 1300 defenders in case something goes wrong.
EDIT: Should be start siding Trap Stun or 7 Tools over Dust Tornado? DDV's really getting on my nerves. lol.
That was crazy! I just had a duel go all the way until I had 1 card left in my deck. I was out of everything, monsters, xyz, and my win condition ended up being Monster Reborn to get Rat, Leviair a Rabbit back to go with the TKRO I got last turn, Rat eff to get Warrior, Rabbit remove Rat, Warrior boost Rabbit, go into Shock Master with TKRO Rabbit and Warrior just so I could have a monster big enough to attack over Honest and then call monster effs on a direct attack next turn. ty Fiendish Chain being my only out to Reaper!
I went ahead and put in 2 Duality since we had 2 Upstart in those slots. Figured while space matched up I might as well give it a try. I've drawn it once (sided it out); my opponent had a TKRO on board.
Warrior's been good! Invoker, eh. I usually just bring him out with Mage.
My opponent has Tour Guide every time I go into the 1st turn Shock Lock with BTH or D. Prison.
Really tempted to just take out the Upstarts altogether and add in Starlight Road and... well maybe I'll just run 1 Upstart. lol. But WTH are we going to do about Extra Deck space??
Been having to play without the Wolf because it's TCG. OMG. Now that I know he's there I've been wanting to xyz into him all the time. Being able to play around Torrential or just pop their face down monster and not worry about Reaper or Dyna is niiiice. Speaking of, how do you feel about that card? I find myself playing around it quite a bit because it can really be devastating. Shock Lock answer.
BTW Billy ran Night Beam at the beginning of the format in Karakuri Geargia. I'm not saying we should use it, since for some reason we're still debating the 3rd MST (which I hear is staple staple after the new cards come out because all of the Firefirst cards and so forth), but just saying we wouldn't be the first to do this shameful act. lol.
Nearly got Sean for 3 Geargiaccel. Would've but I wasn't paying enough attention, toggling browser tabs, and thought he already searched them all. Still, Mind Crush for the +1.
Rethinking Messenger > 2nd D. Prison. Could just be matchups today, though. Who knows, maybe dat Raigeki Break.
17
3 Shark
3 Mage
3 Rabbit
2 Rat
1 Warrior
2 TGU
1 Sangan
1 Reaper
1 Cardcar - D
11
3 Factory
3 MST
1 Reborn
1 Book
1 Mind
1 Avarice
11
2 Torrential
2 Bottomless
2 D. Prison
2 Fiendish
2 Warning
1 Judgment
CCD has been alright. Amazing sometimes and just sits dead in my hand at other times. Same problem TKRO had. For those reasons I decided to give Reaper a second look. It kinda helps stabalize bad hands like CCD would but it's never just sitting dead while I'm getting beat down or a bad topdeck. It also helps protect your LP which is nice and another nice bonus is it being one of those cards like Snowman where you can plus off it, then use it with a Rabbit or Shark to make Rat live. I'm just getting really tired of having CCDs when I really need something to either protect me or let me be proactive instead of draw 2, pass.
With Warrior I have missed the 3rd Rat a couple of times but I feel like I'd run CotH > 3rd Rat almost always. Call does some cool stuff with Invoker too. Rat into Invoker, get Warrior, CotH Rat back, etc. CotH was never really bad for me, just never really outstanding. But I dont think a 3rd Rat is going to impress me any more than CotH.
The problem with Warrior is the extra deck. We're cutting rank 3s to add more rank 4s and if you never see Warrior then you start to run out of rank 3s fast.. I missed Leviathan and Brilliant the most and I see you've had a similar problem. After doing some thinking this is what I have right now as an extra deck:
15
1 Tiras
1 Adreus
1 Maestroke
1 Butterfly
1 Shock Master
1 Utopia
1 Wolf
1 Dweller
1 Zenmaines
1 Zenmaity
1 Brilliant
1 Leviair
1 Temtempo
1 Soul of Silver
1 Leviathan
Cards that got cut.. Zenmaioh, Blackship, Zenmaister, and Invoker. Zenmaister seems nice but I figure we still have the Rat-Rabbit > Soul + the Wolf combo for Gozen so that should be enough. Idk about Invoker honestly. Everytime I see a play with it there's almost always a different, better play I could do. It's cool sometimes to act like a 2nd Maity but honestly with how tight the extra deck is I don't think it's as useful as something like say, Leviathan. Wolf is pretty much the rank 4 I abuse now, hes really crazy haha.
Right now idk if Warrior is even worth it, it's a fairly new trend in Japan so I'm sure they haven't had time to work out al the bugs yet. Like Invoker... I really believe it to be underwhelming. I haven't had a problem with drawing Warrior yet I can always put it to pretty decent use.
The decklist I typed above is only 39 but there are no Upstarts. We could drop Upstart entirely and add CotH, 2nd Reaper, Messenger, or something else but right now I'm really in favor of trying to cut cards to play Upstarts again. Fiendish Chain/D. Prison are the first cards I look at but they've both been pretty good. I guess maybe Avarice... but it's been so good. I think we're both decided on 3 MST for the time being so that isn't a potential cut either.
EDIT: Damn, you edited your post lol. Gotta read that!
3 Shark
3 Mage
3 Rabbit
2 Rat
1 Warrior
2 TGU
1 Sangan
1 Reaper
1 Cardcar - D
11
3 Factory
3 MST
1 Reborn
1 Book
1 Mind
1 Avarice
11
2 Torrential
2 Bottomless
2 D. Prison
2 Fiendish
2 Warning
1 Judgment
CCD has been alright. Amazing sometimes and just sits dead in my hand at other times. Same problem TKRO had. For those reasons I decided to give Reaper a second look. It kinda helps stabalize bad hands like CCD would but it's never just sitting dead while I'm getting beat down or a bad topdeck. It also helps protect your LP which is nice and another nice bonus is it being one of those cards like Snowman where you can plus off it, then use it with a Rabbit or Shark to make Rat live. I'm just getting really tired of having CCDs when I really need something to either protect me or let me be proactive instead of draw 2, pass.
With Warrior I have missed the 3rd Rat a couple of times but I feel like I'd run CotH > 3rd Rat almost always. Call does some cool stuff with Invoker too. Rat into Invoker, get Warrior, CotH Rat back, etc. CotH was never really bad for me, just never really outstanding. But I dont think a 3rd Rat is going to impress me any more than CotH.
The problem with Warrior is the extra deck. We're cutting rank 3s to add more rank 4s and if you never see Warrior then you start to run out of rank 3s fast.. I missed Leviathan and Brilliant the most and I see you've had a similar problem. After doing some thinking this is what I have right now as an extra deck:
15
1 Tiras
1 Adreus
1 Maestroke
1 Butterfly
1 Shock Master
1 Utopia
1 Wolf
1 Dweller
1 Zenmaines
1 Zenmaity
1 Brilliant
1 Leviair
1 Temtempo
1 Soul of Silver
1 Leviathan
Cards that got cut.. Zenmaioh, Blackship, Zenmaister, and Invoker. Zenmaister seems nice but I figure we still have the Rat-Rabbit > Soul + the Wolf combo for Gozen so that should be enough. Idk about Invoker honestly. Everytime I see a play with it there's almost always a different, better play I could do. It's cool sometimes to act like a 2nd Maity but honestly with how tight the extra deck is I don't think it's as useful as something like say, Leviathan. Wolf is pretty much the rank 4 I abuse now, hes really crazy haha.
Right now idk if Warrior is even worth it, it's a fairly new trend in Japan so I'm sure they haven't had time to work out al the bugs yet. Like Invoker... I really believe it to be underwhelming. I haven't had a problem with drawing Warrior yet I can always put it to pretty decent use.
The decklist I typed above is only 39 but there are no Upstarts. We could drop Upstart entirely and add CotH, 2nd Reaper, Messenger, or something else but right now I'm really in favor of trying to cut cards to play Upstarts again. Fiendish Chain/D. Prison are the first cards I look at but they've both been pretty good. I guess maybe Avarice... but it's been so good. I think we're both decided on 3 MST for the time being so that isn't a potential cut either.
EDIT: Damn, you edited your post lol. Gotta read that!
Daaaaamn, I'm glad to see you feel the same about Invoker!
I really miss Starlight Road. But as it is now there are xyzs I want to run but can't because of Warrior :/
Wolf is the NUTS. I brought him out against Nizar and he was like '...' hah. Forgot it isn't legal yet.
How many people really side Dyna? Has it been a big problem?
I think Night Beam would be the last card I'd want to use. I tested 7 Tools today and it was pretty good. Negated a Rivalry so I guess Dust Tornado would've done the same. Trap Stun is cool though. I think it goes maxed MSTs > Dust/Trap Stun > Night Beam.
I tested Duality a couple days ago when I got Sean in another match. Was using it along side Trags and stuff and it was still bad then. Can't even imagine it in our regular build.
Gotta get up in 3 hours so fml lol, but maybe I'll be able to add more after sleep. See ya bright and early tomorrow!
I really miss Starlight Road. But as it is now there are xyzs I want to run but can't because of Warrior :/
Wolf is the NUTS. I brought him out against Nizar and he was like '...' hah. Forgot it isn't legal yet.
How many people really side Dyna? Has it been a big problem?
I think Night Beam would be the last card I'd want to use. I tested 7 Tools today and it was pretty good. Negated a Rivalry so I guess Dust Tornado would've done the same. Trap Stun is cool though. I think it goes maxed MSTs > Dust/Trap Stun > Night Beam.
I tested Duality a couple days ago when I got Sean in another match. Was using it along side Trags and stuff and it was still bad then. Can't even imagine it in our regular build.
Gotta get up in 3 hours so fml lol, but maybe I'll be able to add more after sleep. See ya bright and early tomorrow!
While we're talking about Tools and Trap Stun we should probably look at Forbidden Lance. Can act like another protection card while protecting our stuff. Rat vs Fiendish Chain/TT, Carrier and Leviair vs BTH, etc. And gives us more battle tricks. More importantly another card to take down TKRO.
EDIT: Hmm... I guess Invoker is part of an otk. Wish we had Coat of Arms lol.
EDIT: Hmm... I guess Invoker is part of an otk. Wish we had Coat of Arms lol.
Samuel
Even the duelists over on Pojo have dropped Pot of Avarice.
It could just be playstyle. Perhaps we've just too quick to bring Warrior out off of Mage. I've generally done it the first chance I've gotten. I'm going to hold off on taking Invoker out until I've gotten some more playtesting in but I definitely this it's viable to run Warrior without him.
I don't think Warrior is new for them. He's been in all of their lists since TGU and Shark were released in the OCG. I've drawn him sooo much already but he hasn't really been a problem. I just keep him in my hand until I'm ready to use him. It's not much different than say, having Rabbit on the field, and summoning a Shark to xyz into a Rank 3 except you go into a Rank 4 with Warrior. Having the extra Wind-Up to (1) help with resource management, (2) give an attack boost, (3) give a level boost for Rank 4 xyz, (4) trigger Factory or (5) be a target for your 2nd Carrier has been pretty strong for me.
I was playing against Worms last night and I had Rabbit Rabbit and Mage, all live. I banished Rabbit, got Warrior, boosted Rabbit, attacked over his TKRO, and wanted to go into Wolf and pop his face down with Wolf and Rabbit sooo bad Main Phase 2. Dude was angry! We played three matches and I won 6/7 games, including one where I had to fight through TKRO and 4-5 backrow (including CotH and Judgment).
I don't like how I can't Rat-Rabbit loop and CCD and the same time.
You're right, resource management is soooo important in this deck. Maindeck and Extra Deck. It's insane. But it's doable. I've found Maestroke to be a really important card in the mirror match so if I have multiple ways of solving a problem, I generally try to go into the other one so he's still available later on. We just have to think like that with all of our cards. This is something else we should remember when considering Upstart Goblin. Moar LPs mean we have to get even more value out of our limited resources.
Dyna hasn't typically been a problem because I play around it most of the time but I would've gotten wrecked on multiple occasions if I hadn't been.
If not Starlight, then maybe THRIO? Doesn't take up an Extra Deck slot, works on Torrential Tribute versus one of their monsters and your Carrier, isn't vulnerable to Warning and most importantly, keeps you from losing to heavy Storm. Either way, Starlight Road was never really bad for me, I just wanted to try out different cards and it didn't seem as viable with CCD and 3 MST. Maybe I was right about that but I haven't really tested it since then and Heavy Storm is still a stupid card.
Really, the only reason I'm considering Trap Stun and 7 Tools is because of DDV. The only real advantage Lance offers is if they chain DDV when you activate Rabbit's effect so you get to keep whatever you're banishing, which is really only useful if you have Factory. I just mentioned Night Beam because, against Sean, there was a game where I drew a ridiculous amount of removal and won because of it. I've found this has generally been the case. Unless my opponent is maindecking Maxx "C", which seems to be pretty common... even in Dark World. wth? Glad you've come around on the 3rd MST, though.
Don't blame you for your thoughts on CCD. I've considered the same but am not completely sure yet.
Right now it seems like we've got 35 cards we're sold on.
14
3 Shark
3 Rabbit
3 Mage
2 Rat
2 TGU
1 Sangan
10
1 Reborn
1 Mind Control
1 Heavy Storm
3 MST
1 Book of Moon
3 Factory
11
2 Fiendish Chain
2 D. Prison
2 BTH
2 Torrential
2 Warning
1 Judgment
I'm saying that about the trap lineup because I already know that, from game-to-game and match-to-match my opinion's going to change, but honestly, as long as the meta is what we believe it is, that's the best possible combination of cards and we should just stay with it unless we detect a change in the meta.
Then we've got Warrior. That's 36. Could add in 1 CCD and 3 Upstart and say "the rest of the deck is good, I just want to draw it as quickly as possible". Otherwise we're looking at adding more monsters, Call of the Haunted and/or Starlight Road. Kinda strange, for all of the back-and-forth, it seems as though we're still really far away, but we've actually got it down to some pretty basic decisions. Five spots and only so many cards:
3 Upstart
2-3 monsters including Warrior, CCD, TKRO, Reaper, 3rd Rat and Call of the Haunted
Messenger of Peace
1 Starlight Road
The Extra Deck that you listed earlier looks about right. I don't feel like Brilliant or Golem are necessary for any reason other than being able to OTK without Dweller and Leviathan, though. At least not if we've got a Rank 4 toolbox with Rat, too.
Gozen Match actually seems like a pretty good idea for the mirror match.
EARTH
Rat + Rabbit + Warrior + Temptempo + Soul + Wolf (+ Invoker + Zenmaister + CCD)
WATER
Shark + Carrier + Levithan + Dweller (+ Golem + Snowman)
LIGHT
Giga-Brilliant + Utopia + Butterfly + Shock Master + Tiras (+TKRO)
DARK
TGU + Sangan + Maestroke + Adreus (+Reaper + Blackship)
We would drop down to 2 Magician and could side into our 2 Snowman Eaters! Perhaps if we're going first we have TKROs so we'll either have that, Gozen or a Shock Lock and if we're going second then we put in Snowman Eater. How's that as an out to Shock Master? 2 Snowman, 2 Gozen, 2 Fiendish Chain ect ect ect. We'd have to give it quite a bit of practice (should go Earth here for Tempo or maybe Light for Shock Master, then again, what about Dark for Maestroke and Adreus?) but I could actually see it working.
EDIT: FOR EXAMPLE, I feel like if we're attempting to build a field up and then get 'em with Gozen, it'll generally be best to do it with something besides Earth, as that's really the only attribute you can reconstruct a field with under Gozen. Guess there's Water, too, but it requires 2-3 Sharks (and/or Snowman). That Dark field actually looks pretty nice with Adreus and Maestroke. The No. 1 problem I foresee with this strategy is Rat and Rabbit into Tempo. Guess that means, pending what else you have, and if their Tempo is already gone or not, Light is the best field to make. Brilliant and Utopia or Tiras is really strong and Tempo can't get over that without help. Meanwhile, you can help your own case by summoning TKRO on top of them.
I really like the idea of being able to punish them for committing so much to the board or prevent them from being able to make plays. It works whether you're in a good or bad position. It doesn't trigger Starlight Road and since it sends, Zenmaines and Maestroke aren't immune to it.
2 TKRO
2 Snowman
3 D. Fissure
1 Dark Hole
1 Compulsory
2 Gozen Match
2 Dust Tornado
2 Mind Crush
EDIT: I just began reading over my post again and lol'ed at the first sentence. I meant to add more context around it so you wouldn't get the wrong idea, haha. I just meant to say that if even they're dropping Avarice, it probably says something about the card's consistency in this deck. Heck, if the OCG isn't running it anymore, and neither are the scrubs on Pojo, what reason do we really have to justify the need for a card that's so poor in the early game?
I was looking at November and even the end of October and Warrior was nowhere. Hunter was in every deck, though. The rest of their decks were pretty much the same too: Compulsory, Call, extra s/t removal are still all there without Warrior. But yeah drawing him hasn't been a problem for me either. If anything, it makes me love seeing Mind Control even more! Even just with Factory he's been superb for me. I even got under a BTH and killed my opponent's Maity lol.
Wolf is so good. Rat'ing into him feels even better. It's literally hard for me to play TCG games now, lol. I always want to summon him but a lot of the time he doesn't stick. Always seems to get hit by BTH or Compulse or something and that's what made me think of giving Lance a go. I would just hate to have Lance/Trap Stun/Seven Tools/Night Beam vs a Factory or something hah, Dust Tornadoo! At the same time I really would like to have an answer to DDV. Heck, we can side Trap Stun in with our Gozens and turn them off whenever we wanted haha. I think it comes down to being able to make plays a turn earlier with Night Beam/Forbidden Lance or being able to go off a turn later but also be able to counter things like DDV.
Ultimately we're just going to have to ask ourselves if we care having 4 s/t removal cards against Simon Agents. Deck barely sees any play and Chaos Dragon is going down too so maybe.
THRIO.. Man everytime I resolve that card I'm going to wish it were Starlight Road. But there are also going to be times I'm glad it wasn't because they had Warning or because that last extra deck spot really came in handy. I'll give it a go. Who knows, maybe it'll impress us? Heavy Storm really is a huge problem and especially after your experience at the case tournament, I don't think it's a problem we can just ignore. Same thing as above, would you rather have a 4th card that lets you go off a turn earlier or would you rather have this and not be able to counter BTH, Warning, Fiendish, etc but have a card that protects against TT and more importantly Heavy Storm? Sounds a little underwhelming, I think the reason Starlight sounded better is because it could turn into a win condition on its own early-game when you had nothing going on.
Your side has like nothinggg for Inzektors. Maybe we should prepare for that matchup a little more? Idk what more we can do other than like Effect Veiler, though.
About resource management, Pot of Avarice helps! It's even cooler with Warrior now because if you're Rat-Rabbit looping with Warrior in your grave/hand and draw into Avarice you can put back any exceeds you want and be able to go into them. Avarice is a card that helps to give you more resources without having to add any more to your deck (like Coth or the 3rd Rat) and its a +1 to boot. It would let us stay closer to that 35 card core and just let us recycle those main cards (and xyzs, which we otherwise couldn't do) instead of adding more. I know it can be dead early game but I think the resource recycling it gives is really important in this deck. Good point with Upstarts too, I think I'd have to play Pot of Avarice if I decided to play the 3 Upstarts. Could also go 2 and then it wouldn't be as big of a deal.. hah. It's just with 3 in my deck I usually resolve 2 a game and sometimes that causes problems when I run out of plays. An extra 1000 is never a problem though. Atleast not yet.
I really think the Gozen Match side could work too but like you said it's going to take a lot of hard work and practicing with it. I feel like that's something we can test in password DN games with other people though, unlike Warrior. Problem is trying to find Wind-Ups instead of Dark World and Inzektors and more commonly Worms:P lol. But executing the Gozen Match side correctly is going to be tricky and if I don't feel ready by the Friday before Miami then I don't think it's worth using. Going to have to crack down on that asap.
I really like the post side for Wind-Ups. Snowman + Gozen Match.. Haha. Maxx "C" and Needle Ceiling? You guys are getting next level'd.
Hows the random Compulse working in the side? Still good for ya?
Fire Dance - Tenki in the mirror is starting to worry me a little. Their Rabbits being bigger than ours is a pretty big deal. I guess it's not too bad if we have TGU, Sangan, Mage, Reaper, a Rat play or anything else but yeah. Not going to come up often where its just our Rabbits against theirs but it's just something I thought I'd bring up. Not worth playing the random copy still, imo.
Wolf is so good. Rat'ing into him feels even better. It's literally hard for me to play TCG games now, lol. I always want to summon him but a lot of the time he doesn't stick. Always seems to get hit by BTH or Compulse or something and that's what made me think of giving Lance a go. I would just hate to have Lance/Trap Stun/Seven Tools/Night Beam vs a Factory or something hah, Dust Tornadoo! At the same time I really would like to have an answer to DDV. Heck, we can side Trap Stun in with our Gozens and turn them off whenever we wanted haha. I think it comes down to being able to make plays a turn earlier with Night Beam/Forbidden Lance or being able to go off a turn later but also be able to counter things like DDV.
Ultimately we're just going to have to ask ourselves if we care having 4 s/t removal cards against Simon Agents. Deck barely sees any play and Chaos Dragon is going down too so maybe.
THRIO.. Man everytime I resolve that card I'm going to wish it were Starlight Road. But there are also going to be times I'm glad it wasn't because they had Warning or because that last extra deck spot really came in handy. I'll give it a go. Who knows, maybe it'll impress us? Heavy Storm really is a huge problem and especially after your experience at the case tournament, I don't think it's a problem we can just ignore. Same thing as above, would you rather have a 4th card that lets you go off a turn earlier or would you rather have this and not be able to counter BTH, Warning, Fiendish, etc but have a card that protects against TT and more importantly Heavy Storm? Sounds a little underwhelming, I think the reason Starlight sounded better is because it could turn into a win condition on its own early-game when you had nothing going on.
Your side has like nothinggg for Inzektors. Maybe we should prepare for that matchup a little more? Idk what more we can do other than like Effect Veiler, though.
About resource management, Pot of Avarice helps! It's even cooler with Warrior now because if you're Rat-Rabbit looping with Warrior in your grave/hand and draw into Avarice you can put back any exceeds you want and be able to go into them. Avarice is a card that helps to give you more resources without having to add any more to your deck (like Coth or the 3rd Rat) and its a +1 to boot. It would let us stay closer to that 35 card core and just let us recycle those main cards (and xyzs, which we otherwise couldn't do) instead of adding more. I know it can be dead early game but I think the resource recycling it gives is really important in this deck. Good point with Upstarts too, I think I'd have to play Pot of Avarice if I decided to play the 3 Upstarts. Could also go 2 and then it wouldn't be as big of a deal.. hah. It's just with 3 in my deck I usually resolve 2 a game and sometimes that causes problems when I run out of plays. An extra 1000 is never a problem though. Atleast not yet.
I really think the Gozen Match side could work too but like you said it's going to take a lot of hard work and practicing with it. I feel like that's something we can test in password DN games with other people though, unlike Warrior. Problem is trying to find Wind-Ups instead of Dark World and Inzektors and more commonly Worms:P lol. But executing the Gozen Match side correctly is going to be tricky and if I don't feel ready by the Friday before Miami then I don't think it's worth using. Going to have to crack down on that asap.
I really like the post side for Wind-Ups. Snowman + Gozen Match.. Haha. Maxx "C" and Needle Ceiling? You guys are getting next level'd.
Hows the random Compulse working in the side? Still good for ya?
Fire Dance - Tenki in the mirror is starting to worry me a little. Their Rabbits being bigger than ours is a pretty big deal. I guess it's not too bad if we have TGU, Sangan, Mage, Reaper, a Rat play or anything else but yeah. Not going to come up often where its just our Rabbits against theirs but it's just something I thought I'd bring up. Not worth playing the random copy still, imo.
Samuel
I just checked out the first (earliest) five "Championship" events in November and 5/8 decklists had Warrior in it. They've been toying around for him a while now. I don't believe it's "new" and in the testing stages anymore. It seems to me that they've found it to be the optimal card, which is telling seeing as how they tested and took out Hunter and have even begun using 2 Rats recently.
I agree that Lance is a really powerful offensive weapon. I like it better than Trap Stun or 7 Tools in that regard because it isn't as vulnerable to Heavy Storm, can be used right away, and can trick your opponent into thinking that they're safe using Bottomless or Torrential even when they have a Warning set. I feel as though the deck that used them in Barcelona, one of our duelists, made the best use of them though because of how it interacted with the 3 TKROs. You're right, it's probably better than Night Beam but I feel as though I would rather have THRIO or Starlight Road during Game 1s instead, so that I'm less vulnerable to Heavy Storm, and Trap Stun, Dust Tornado or maybe even Tools after siding for Gozen and so forth.
BTW Starlight Road and THRIO are outs to DDV if they do it when you have multiple monsters on the field. For example, if you go Mage-Shark, get another Mage and then they activate it, since it would be destroying multiple cards on the field, you could negate it.
Should we have more than 4 cards of removal against Simon He Agents, anyway? Against other Agent decks, yes, but I'm not so sure against that build.
The maindeck actually has quite a few answers to Inzektors already with Fiendish Chains ect ect. Then I side into Dust for CotH and Gozen, Dark Hole for T-Roar and 1-2 Mind Crush.
Compulse has been good, yes.
Tenki! Moar reason for the 3rd MST. idk I'm not too worried about it... I feel as though people will test it and realize that it's terrible late game. I don't even like searching them with Factory when that's all I have left. Would rather just have them as Mage-fodder, just-in-case. The only reason to grab them is hand advantage and decreasing the odds of drawing them. It's a lose-lose scenario with Tenki, though.
I've lost one game so far because I didn't have Avarice, and that's just because of an unfortunate Heavy-opponent's Starlight-Judgment play to get SDD on board, his only monster left, on board to attack for game that I couldn't stop. I've come really, really close a few other times but I still won and do feel as though I could've managed my resources better.
I made a couple updates to my post earlier...
EDIT: I just noticed the combos in the "400+ person OCG Tournament" thread. Woah. Those are ridiculous. They received Coat of Arms around the same time they got our Wind-Up exclusives, too, so there's no way to tell if they would've ran Warrior without him.
I agree that Lance is a really powerful offensive weapon. I like it better than Trap Stun or 7 Tools in that regard because it isn't as vulnerable to Heavy Storm, can be used right away, and can trick your opponent into thinking that they're safe using Bottomless or Torrential even when they have a Warning set. I feel as though the deck that used them in Barcelona, one of our duelists, made the best use of them though because of how it interacted with the 3 TKROs. You're right, it's probably better than Night Beam but I feel as though I would rather have THRIO or Starlight Road during Game 1s instead, so that I'm less vulnerable to Heavy Storm, and Trap Stun, Dust Tornado or maybe even Tools after siding for Gozen and so forth.
BTW Starlight Road and THRIO are outs to DDV if they do it when you have multiple monsters on the field. For example, if you go Mage-Shark, get another Mage and then they activate it, since it would be destroying multiple cards on the field, you could negate it.
Should we have more than 4 cards of removal against Simon He Agents, anyway? Against other Agent decks, yes, but I'm not so sure against that build.
The maindeck actually has quite a few answers to Inzektors already with Fiendish Chains ect ect. Then I side into Dust for CotH and Gozen, Dark Hole for T-Roar and 1-2 Mind Crush.
Compulse has been good, yes.
Tenki! Moar reason for the 3rd MST. idk I'm not too worried about it... I feel as though people will test it and realize that it's terrible late game. I don't even like searching them with Factory when that's all I have left. Would rather just have them as Mage-fodder, just-in-case. The only reason to grab them is hand advantage and decreasing the odds of drawing them. It's a lose-lose scenario with Tenki, though.
I've lost one game so far because I didn't have Avarice, and that's just because of an unfortunate Heavy-opponent's Starlight-Judgment play to get SDD on board, his only monster left, on board to attack for game that I couldn't stop. I've come really, really close a few other times but I still won and do feel as though I could've managed my resources better.
I made a couple updates to my post earlier...
EDIT: I just noticed the combos in the "400+ person OCG Tournament" thread. Woah. Those are ridiculous. They received Coat of Arms around the same time they got our Wind-Up exclusives, too, so there's no way to tell if they would've ran Warrior without him.
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